Topics: Issues surrounding the killing of Osama bin Laden by U.S. Forces. First Republican debate in South Carolina.
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Oh, and for those who would like to check out a fictional portrayal of the raid on Osama bin Laden’s “compound,” check out this from Bosch Fawstin’s The Infidel #1.
Don't Let It Go 
I don’t get it……I’m hearing people say it’s ok to torture someone because they committed a heinous crime……I’m hearing that because we know of the persons guilt that it’s ok to torture another human being…..and I just can’t wrap my head around the notion that kids might be hearing this. And that they’re being led to believe it’s ok to torture another human being…..what I want to know is if the people espousing this could actually do this? Can you do this Amy? I understand that people’s family members were killed, that they were on the phone speaking their last words to their loved ones before dying ……and perhaps I could understand their feelings of wanting to do this but someone who was not involved in this manner believing they could do this sounds pretty cold to me……Do they deserve this? Maybe. But would you Amy deserve the feeling you would get from torturing this person? have you ever experienced torturing another person before. Do you know how it would feel? Do you think it would change you at all? I’m just not so sure I could do this…in spite of whether or not the person deserved it. YEs, I know we have others who can do this sort of thing officially, but are we not accomplices in this by agreeing with it? I think we have to look very carefully not just at the moral issue here, but at the psychological issue of people espousing torture as an answer to this type or any type of situation…..it gives me the chills hearing it…..it feels like Lord of Flies (yes i know it’s different yet it’s similar in my mind). It feels like someone listening is going to do something very stupid by hearing this……it really scares me……obviously I haven’t processed this in my mind 100% because I have no reasoning behind my thoughts/feelings except to say that we would be acting like the animals that they are. Even if they deserve it, what does it do to us to condone, or support, or espouse the use of torture?
It’s not just torturing “because [someone] has committed a heinous crime.” Remember the context: you are in a proper war of self-defense, and the torture of this individual is necessary to eliminate the threat to your country, with minimal loss of life of your citizens. This will be a context that doesn’t come up too often, one would hope.
Here’s the Brook/Epstein article I mentioned: http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-spring/just-war-theory.asp
Wasn’t the Geneva covention suppose to limit this? And I support the notion that all torture does is give you bad intel…..wouldn’t you say anything to have it stopped?
And I also agree with Amy .. Do not trust Ron Paul given his religiou speak…….
If the evidence showed that all it did was give you bad intel, then of course no one should do it. Who in their right mind would *want* to do it with no hope of getting information that you need? But if it’s true that it yields reliable intelligence, such as reports are saying occurred in the case of finding bin Laden, then there are some cases in which it should be used, again, ONLY as part of a proper war of self-defense.
What are the reports that say torture was useful in finding Osama?
Here’s one of them. In particular note Obama’s “mosaic” language.
Thank you Amy for turning my head a bit for a different view. There is something equally wrong about the torture of making people inflict torture on others. But when dealing with ruthless people, it’s kill or be killed. We can’t afford to play nice. I hope Obama realizes this.
The general culture is addicted to socialism…….they NEED their government to take care of those who either can’t take care of themselves or to take care of them. It’s absolutely insane that people don’t believe that people would not donate enough freely and that the government MUST make everyone contribute……how to overcome this notion is the key to bringing back capitalism…….
Regarding the act of targeting a particular individual for killing by the US Government, I have heard the counter arguments as to what we did (which I agree with in this case of getting Osama Bin Laden). Basically, they want to contain government force, just as Objectivists do, and don’t think the President ought to have to power to command a kill to a particular individual without direct approval by the Congress of the United States. In other words, they do not want the President to have the power to selectively send Special Forces to kill an individual without any sort of oversight. In this particular case, I think Congress did give approval to use whatever force was necessary to subdue the enemy shortly after 911, but how far can it go? Judge Napolitano is concerned that it can get out of hand and then the President can order anyone killed who he believes is against the United States or an enemy of this country. He gave the example of the President giving kill orders to his political enemies — people like Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, and himself. And this is his reasoning to keep the government in check. And while I do agree with the principles of Judge Napolitano, and that the government kill orders need to be closely scrutinized, in the case of Osama Bin Laden I think he was given the green light by Congress in their force resolution.
For more on the torture issue (as well as excellent commentary on some of the other issues surrounding the killing of bin Laden) check out Leonard Peikoff’s interview of Yaron Brook, part 1 of 2.